Dick Dunn

Interviewed by Sean Fagan of RL1908.com

Dick Dunn made his first grade debut for Eastern Suburbs as a 16 year old in 1937. He is the last remaining link to perhaps the greatest club side of the 20th Century in Sydney, or anywhere else for that matter! The Tri-Colours lost only one game in three seasons as they won the premiership in 1935, 1936 and 1937.

Dunn though was a great player for Easts in his own right. He has always been a devout fan of Easts, still is, and went from carrying the kit bags of his Tri-Colour heroes at the Sports Ground to playing alongside them in a meteoric rise. Before his career was over he won three premierships with Easts, including the 1945 decider where he scored an incredible three tries and five goals.

Dick Dunn still goes to games at the Sydney Football Stadium. He is looking forward to season 2002 and seeing matches every weekend now that Souths, the Dragons and his beloved Roosters are all sharing the Stadium.

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RL1908 - Thanks for the opportunity for this interview Mr. Dunn. I want to begin with when you first started playing League. You were an Easts local junior weren't you?

Dick Dunn - That's right. I was always for Easts - dedicated actually. As a youngster my Mother used to take me, mainly of a Saturday, and I'd go out to the Sports Ground and carry either Ray Stehr's, Andy Norval's, Dave Brown's bags from the top of the steps to the dressing room.

Yeah, and years later I'm playing with ‘em, you understand what I mean? Yeah, that's an actual fact.

I used to go out there, never missed a game at the Sports Ground. I was always an Easts fan - right from the opening whistle.

RL - What's your earliest memory of playing Rugby League?

DD - Oh I'd say probably at the age of 14 in 1935 - I played Presidents Cup.

RL - And then you progressed through the Easts grades?

DD - I played 1st Grade 1937 to 47. I played 148 1st Grade games, twenty 2nd Grade games and nine 3rd Grade games - all for Eastern Suburbs.148 games in Firsts over 10 or 11 years - and there was only 8 teams in the competition then! I had played 100 grade games with Easts at the age of 20. Then 100 First Grade games at the age of 23.

RL - Those Easts 1st Grade teams of the mid-1930s, they were obviously great teams?

DD - Oh well I mean in 1935/36/37 they won the 3 competitions and they were only defeated once in all that time - by South Sydney at the Cricket Ground. So they won the three. The 1937 comp was a 1 round affair because the Kangaroo team was going to England. I think we had 8 representatives went away with the team. I was in Reserve Grade and then I came up and we won the comp in 1937. I was only 16 so I done well.

RL - That must have been a great thrill! So what made the Easts team so good?

DD - What made the team - well it had equally the best players that ever played football now or before. Like when you look at the backline: Thicknesse, Norman, Beaton, McKinnon, Totty, O'Loan, Dowling - and the forwards: Andy Norval, Harry Pierce, Joe Pearce, Ray Stehr, Tommy McLachlan and Max Nixon. They were just supreme in all parts of the game.

RL - And when you got called into First Grade - how did you feel about making that?

DD - Well I was quite thrilled sort of thing to play with the champions that I carried their bags for. You see, Norval was still playing, Harry Pierce, Joe Pearce, they were playing. Dave Brown went to England and I was in the centres as a kid sort of thing and found it quite exciting actually because football was my game. Other sport - I used to swim and play cricket and that but I was mad on football right from when the little kid.

RL - Do you remember who you played against in that first game?

DD - Who I played against in the first game in 1937. I think... I'm not quite sure to be truthful but it was either Balmain or University, I'm not quite sure.

RL - What were the old University boys like?

DD - Oh they weren't a strong team but they were very clean team and tried very hard sort of thing. That's in First Grade. They went out of First Grade in 1937.

RL - Didn't one of your Easts fellas come from there?

DD - Ah, there was a centre. One of the best centres played the game. A deadly tackler. I was just trying to think after you called the other day just who he is. No, I looked in a couple of books but I just can't pick it up at the moment. This chap was a deadly tackler and I just can't think of his name. Well I didn't see much of him because it was actually more or less one season with me at Easts and I never followed University through the years you see. (Editor's note: we later determined the player was Ross McKinnon.)

RL - And in 1938 you made the Final with Easts?

DD - Ah '38, yeah, Canterbury beat us in the Final. As Premiers they were supposed to go to New Zealand - but they couldn't make the trip and we went to New Zealand instead in 1938. Frank Hyde came with us. In the Final Canterbury beat us 19 to 8 I think. I scored a try and Aiden Cairns scored a try. It was disappointing to lose the Final. But as I say I was only very young then and winning and losing was not a great thing to me but it was participating that I was so pleased with, you know.

RL - In 1939 the team missed the semi-finals, had you lost a few players by then?

DD - Yeah there with quite a few of them had retired you see or were retiring. I think they were retiring and then beaten in ‘38 and then retired. We got a crop of young fellas coming up sort of thing though.

RL - Which meant in 1940 you got back up there in the Final again.

DD - Yes 1940, we ah - that was funny. When I say funny, the write up of the papers give us no chance because Dave Brown, who was captain/coach, broke his arm in the final round game you see. And ah, they brought up a young fella, a great friend of mine, that was a great little footballer called Billy Brew. He later died of meningitis in the Army. They brought him up in the centres and the media says with a young back line - we averaged 20 years of age - what chance would we have with Brew coming up. Ironically, in my opinion, he would have been the man of the match. He would have got it, he was the best player on the ground. Joe Pearce broke away and he backed him up, scored a try and from then on we were successful. We went on and won 24-14.

RL - I think the newspapers reported later that Easts played most of the game through their forwards.

DD - Yeah, well probably so because our forwards were so strong. Joe Pearce and Harry Pierce, Ray Stehr and Norval and Clarke were all big, strong and healthy. Because the forward type of player in those days was so totally different to today you know. Like forwards in those days were the backs' labourers. In other words, they would try to contain one another in say a 10 yard area - that gave them the area to give the back lines 65 yards for a quick movement of ball and attack.

Easts 1940 Premiers
Back: Pierce, Pearce, Arnold, O'Loan, Stehr, May
Centre: Hollingdale, Nobbs, Callaghan, Brown (c), Dunn, Brew, Clarke
Front: Bartlett, Lisle

RL - I guess with WW2 on there probably wasn't much celebrations after the game?

DD - Oh no, even on the field and off the field the celebrations were nowhere near as ecstatic as they are today. It was just a matter of winning or losing. There was lot of friendship between the teams then. You know the friendly atmosphere. The players in those days were not only footballers that played against one another. It was a pleasure because there wasn't very much turns to my knowledge. There were no turn-ups to a degree. It was a pleasure to play with them because everybody loved football for the game. We didn't play for any money or anything like that. To represent your district was really as good as anything.

RL - Can you recall some of the great opposition players of that time?

DD - Ah, bloody great opponents! Probably one of the greatest, in my opinion, was a champion footballer who played with South Sydney. I was only a kid of 16 and ah, Fred Felsch his name was. He was a policeman, he was about sixteen stone. He was the cleanest footballer ever on the football field. His attire was magnificent and come at you all day long if you understand what I mean. Cliff Pearce from Western Suburbs, Ronnie Bailey from Canterbury-Bankstown, oh they were really magnificent centres in my opinion.

RL - Any forwards?

DD - I came up against Bumper Farrell. But Bumper was as slow as an old truck. You had no worries with Bumper, you'd get around Bumper without any trouble. His main job with the Bluebags was to win the ball. In those days forwards were, as I said, backs' labourers and they packed down in the scrum and it was an even money chance whoever got the ball actually whether they were putting the ball in or otherwise.

RL - And Herb Narvo would have been in the Newtown pack?

DD - Narvo was the hardest running forward close to the line that I've ever encountered actually. He was magnificent. Ray Stehr the captain of our team says to me "it's your job to make sure you get him"! He'd come at you all day and if you didn't hit him right between the legs and the knees in a low tackle and lift and drive, he would brush right over you. He was the hardest running forward that I ever encountered.

RL - You just mentioned Ray Stehr - he almost retired early on didn't he?

DD - He retired - army wise. And then he made a comeback actually. He coached and captained our successful 1945 team.

RL - Was it hard having players dropping in and out because of war duties?

DD - Oh yes, extremely so, actually. We'd have players, sometimes myself, available one weekend and not available the next weekend.

RL - In 1941 you made it to the Final again?

DD - 1941 yeah - '41 we made it to the Final and we were defeated by St George. I'm not quite sure, but I think that it was their first competition title. They beat us well, I say, quite easy really. I think they beat us 31 to 14. It was just one of those games on the day. We could've played ‘em another day and done a lot better but on their day they were just supreme. They had a centre, a real good centre, that I played against and he was bloody good, a bloke by the name of Gordon Hart. He also I think at that time was in the AIF, or just going into it or coming out of it, one or the other. But ah he was a good centre. They were well captained by Neville Smith too.

RL - I've read in a few accounts that in 1944 you thought about retiring?

DD - Yeah well the point is this, I didn't miss any games or anything because of it. I mean, I was in the Army, then I got married in '43 and had a little girl in July 1944. I thought geez I've had a long run of football and I just lost my interest. Then I says to myself: "No bugger it! You can make a comeback if it's important to you. There are a lot of new players coming through and you could do alright." And that's it, I went in with the attitude of success instead of defeat.

RL - Which is apparent if you look at the Easts 1945 Final team - you had a lot of new blokes.

DD - Yeah, oh yes, I'd say we had a champion team actually, in my opinion. I mean we had Georgie Watt who had played with Balmain. He was equal to any player that I've seen in his position as a hooker. When the scrum would break up and we'd kick - he's a hooker remember - he was out down there tackling the full bloody back, he was so good. Jack Arnold was a big strong healthy bugger, Sid Hobson from the country and Lawson - all strong. And myself as lock. Then Lisle and O'Connell - equal to any combination of half-backs that's played the game. Lionel Cooper had just come back from the war, we had Paul Tierney, Johnny Hunter, Kenny Foster and Ray Pratt. So virtually, there were our champions and our ones that probably were becoming to be champions.

RL - When the semi-finals started in '45 the war was just about over, did that feel any different at that moment?

DD -Well actually, no it really didn't make any difference. It was just fortunate you were there to play sort of thing. I was a Sergeant in the AIF and had me moments. The point is that football was a game and if you were defeated well ah, anyway we had the "right to challenge" by virtue of the fact that we were Minor Premiers. In those days the minor premiers had the right to challenge if defeated in a semi-final.

RL - So you're in the 1945 Final against Balmain - much is still made of your match-winning performance - apparently you kicked a goal from halfway to win it and they say that Ray Stehr didn't want you to take it?

DD - Yeah well the situation was this, the game was very, very close. They led us 10 to 5 at half time and were playing very good football. The scores and play fluctuated and they led us with about four minutes to go by 18-17. We got a penalty on the half way line you know. Ray Stehr says "kick for the sideline". Wally O'Connell, who will verify this of course, he was closest to me. Stehr says "which side you going to kick, so I'll go over?" I said "Don't you want the two points - it'll put us in front!" He said "Its too far for you to kick it."

Any rate I had a little bit of trouble in getting the ball onto a mound. In those days there was no sand or anything and I couldn't make a mound from the hardness of the centre, you know, the cricket pitch. So I said to Georgie Watt I'm going to kick this "Lomas style" - that's an upright position of the ball you know, standing up? He said "Oh you couldn't kick that Lomas style."

And ah of course as soon as it left me boot, I said this a goer for sure. Some say it landed in the crowd. I know it landed well over the bloody post because we did have a bit of excitement by kicking it - we were winning!

Ironically, when Balmain kicked off I anticipated Jorgenson's kick - he was a great footballer and a great goal kicker, probably a lot better than me. I says to myself he'll kick this right here, which was the 25 yard line. But of course even with us having possession of the ball there could have been a scrum and something could have happened, maybe they could've kicked 2 points with a field goal and all that.

Anyway, sure enough, I've caught the ball fortunately and this is the truth and actual facts - I punted it from our own 25 to find the line 5 yards from the corner post under the SCG scoreboard! Right? We won the scrum against the feed and this is where Lisle and O'Connell put a move on that, I'm not quite sure what the name of the move was, any rate, they went bang, bang, bang and fortunately they just passed me the ball and I scored in the corner and that really won the game. It was 22-18 with about 10 seconds to play.

Kicking for the conversion goal and I've always said it, people say "ah your bull!", I'm kicking for the goal and in my opinion no chance of missing. I had a lot of confidence and I went into the ball and just before I got into the ball the bell rang for full time you know. And it just put me off and grazed the outside upright so there was two more I would've scored! But I was quite happy with what happened and in scoring those points I mean. When I say it meant nothing, I got more publicity years later than when the penalty goal went over those posts!

RL - What do you recall of that Balmain side?

DD - Balmain had some great players. One of the best lock men who played the game in a bloke by name of Jack Hampstead. His grandson is a NRL referee now. And they had Tommy Bourke, so they really had a good team actually. They tried hard and we were fortunate. That's all I can say really, that the bounce of the ball was a big factor in that. We just tackled. Tackling is an old axiom in Rugby League, if you can't score yourself don't let them score. They had a little half back called Stan ‘Desi' Ponchard - quick as a flash actually, from the scrum base he was speedy. They were attacking just as much as we attacking but we just had the little bit of fortune to win the game.

Mind you, there's a lot of bull that those papers write and media. They want to reckon that I took my little girl's sock out in the 1945 Final and all that sort of thing..."tears in me eyes" asking Stehr for me to kick the goal. That's all baloney if you understand what I mean. The point is this that the winning of that match was good but it wasn't sensational. It was just another part of life.

RL - Obviously the war took a lot of rep football away, but you didn't seem to get a look-in even in 1946?

DD - I got picked in the City team in 1946 before the Englishmen come here. That was City/Country matches. We had a combined army team that played at the Sydney Cricket Ground during the war actually and Possibles v Probables and all that sort of thing which I participated in. But in the selectors' opinion they didn't think I was good enough for the higher rank and I was disappointed because I was. Not only did I get those points in the 1945 Final, I was the leading point scorer for that particular year. And ah, the point is probably that in the selectors' opinion the other players were better than us.

RL - You played on for another season or so?

DD - That's right. I retired in 1947. I'd slowed up and as I say those young fellas were coming up and I just said good night. I stayed with the club though, I never missed a match. I've been, as I say, connected with Easts from 1935 to right now with all the different positions I've had. Like I was President of the club for a time and I coached the First Grade in 1960. Easts were running second last in '59 and then we had blokes like Jack Gibson and Terry Fearnley. Yeah, Fearnley was captain and unfortunately broke his arm before the Grand Final in 1960. I think we done well but we weren't in the race with St George. They were too good actually. I was also on the NSWRL Judiciary later, I spent 13 years on it, nine as Chairman.

RL - Did you see much of the Lions team that came out in 1946?

DD - Oh yeah, I seen ‘em play. Yes they were supreme in those days. Like they had bloody great great footballers. Stanley Brogden, I was so impressed with him as a centre. He was dynamic, and their forwards....they were really really really footballers, supreme like you know. You'd know that from what you've read.

RL - And the crowds obviously would've come back out after the War to watch them.

DD - Oh yes, well then considering that the population of Australia was approximately 7 million when we played the ‘45 Final against Balmain and New South Wales would have been under 3 (million), we got a crowd of 45,500 which was really outstanding for the time of the crowd we had. But that's what people wanted to see like, sport and that. That's what we want now instead of what happened on September 11 sort of thing. You go to these matches and that, you say well gee this is great, you know, because you can see a bloody thrill of man scoring a try with a backing up like Johns, how he dictates the "terms of contract". Seeing that, it makes you really say golly they're good you know.

RL - I'd like throw a few names at you, hear about some of the players you played alongside?

DD - Go for it son!

Wally O'Connell was another dynamic little tackler, not only that his attack was so good that if you backed him up you'd know you'd be hitting tries. Him and Lyle's combination was equivalent to anything I played with.

Dave Brown, what made Dave Brown - I'd say Dave was "a player". I played in the centres with him. Fortunately, what made Dave Brown was this. He wasn't a great tackler but he was a stopper. He was a very good attacking player and his main part in my opinion was to know what was going to happen. If somebody punted a ball up he'd be right down there in attack and if they dropped it he'd scoop it up and away and under the post sort of thing. So you see I would say that, summing him up, his positional play was equal to anything. Goal kicking, oh goal kicking he was just supreme actually.

I was quite thrilled to get the opportunity to spend some training nights with Dave and as I say he improved my goal kicking. But goal kicking is on your own - if you just place it, come back, and go to it, and follow through, head down, follow through, guiding it, you will be successful. Now it's a lot harder for people to teach you that because once you put it down, it's in your hands whether you address it properly and contact it properly.

Ernie Norman he was a five-eighth. Ernie Norman and Vic Hey....see a lot of people say oh gees the old timers they wouldn't live with the current footballers. The only thing they wouldn't live with ‘em is their condition by virtue of the fact that nine out of ten don't work now and they're training, training, training, training. Well in our days we'd only train two nights a week - Tuesday and Thursday. But personally I used to, I lived in Watsons Bay opposite the park near the hotel, I'd get up two mornings a week and have a ½ hour sprinting before I'd have a swim, even in the winter. Then I'd go to work and it gives you that added incentive as you were in reasonably good condition. But Ernie Norman was a deadly tackler. Him and Vic Hey collectively they were great. People say the old timers were not the equal of today sort of thing but remember this the old timers would've stopped ‘em in their defence because as you know today it's an attacking game. I mean great tries are scored. Defence is not good at all round the rucks. I mean it's a barge in 5 tackle, then kick. It's a barge in, big forward, barge in, barge in, as you do like a fighter if you understand what I mean? Get him on the back foot and by the 12th round he's gone because he's got punishment and doesn't turn it up and then gets the knock out punch sort of thing.

Viv Thicknesse come from Easts Union. I think he taught a lot of players, by them just watching him. He had the most oh beautiful pass from the ruck or from the scrum. But when he let the ball go it was just an action that was oh beautiful. The ball would go wherever he wanted it. Straight to Ernie Norman at five-eighth or cut him out and go to Beaton in the centre. Not only that he was tall, not overweight, quick, smart, attacked and defended well.

Joe Pearce, well Joe Pearce was a sensation. He jumped from Union and he came over to Eastern Suburbs. I'm not kidding you he had a hand on him like it was that big he used to carry the ball in one hand, you see, and fend with the other. He had for his large size reasonably good speed and as I stated earlier in that competition in '40 with Billy Brew it was he that broke through from the half way line to the 25 and give it to Billy and Billy went over for the try. So he was a forward that there's been no better. That's my....because you might think I'm only one-sided because it was Eastern Suburbs, but having the pleasure of playing with ‘em on the field, hearing what they were saying and seeing what they were doing I can substantiate anything I state. They took 3 competitions in a row only losing 1 match and that shows you that they had it.

Ross McKinnon - 'aw now you're talking about a footballer. He had the best fend of any footballer that played the game. He had the speed. He had the body. He had the side step and it was unfortunate that he, I think he broke his arm against the Englishmen in 1936 or 7.

Harry Pierce - he was a policeman and he was another great one. Come from St George really and he was a second row forward. Again, speed of a bloody back, long back, and not only that a fend, a side step, body contact, brush you off and that. He was sensational.

Jack Beaton - oh Jack Beaton was supreme. He come from St Joey's college off hand. He was just like Churchill who they called "the master". Beaton was a master in a lot of the game. He could play fullback or centre and his movement was, oh was just beautiful to watch, side step, back up the footballer. He was a champion footballer.

Andy Norval - was the greatest footballer that I have ever seen. He was just dynamic as a lock man. He had the speed of any back playing the game and his tackling was devastating. He'd stop em in their tracks. My opinion, I've watched football right from, as I say, from the ‘30s to now - there's no footballer that was better than him in my opinion. He came down from Newcastle and he had a hotel here in the City. He just had a body on him that was so strong he would have been a good wrestler. But as a footballer, he's my footballer of the decade.

Lionel Cooper, ah, come from Darwin, well he was in the Army up there. He was playing up in Darwin, he had Stehr, anyway my brother was refereeing. Cooper was asked or advised to go down to Eastern Suburbs. Lionel Cooper in my opinion, against the same position, he was the equal to any winger that played the game. Speed, fend, back up, come at you as hard as can be and a body on him like a wrestler.

RL - You've talked a little bit about the modern game already. I've seen you out the football a little bit. Do you still like to go out there?

DD - Oh yes! Well I've been going out to all matches. What I used to do was go round all the grounds with Eastern Suburbs, but, what I do now is see all the Easts matches at the Sydney Sportsground, or the Stadium rather, one week and Souths the next week. Fortunately, now is all well and Souths are in. I mean I'm in the position to go, yes no trouble. Of course, it's a relaxation. But I think that in my opinion that pay-tv has taken a bit of the crowd away. Because you can sit home on your lounge and watch it. But the Sydney Stadium suits me, it's not far to go and see some nice footballers.

RL - Well thanks for your time and comments Mr. Dunn. I just basically wanted to get your opinion because you were there.

DD - I'll put it this way to you, I'm only stating everything in my own mind - that they were that good or they were that bad, if you understand. There's probably not too many goes back to that era, and watching everything from then to now.

Dick Dunn Interview: Sydney, NSW - October 2001

Article © Sean Fagan / RL1908

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